Hollywood films with an inverted hermeneutic (fairly long post)
You've all seen films with Satan. Either he, or one of his minions, is harassing young women or little girls, getting them to talk dirty and vomit pea soup all over the place while wearing spooky contact lenses. That's the Satan everyone's seen and is yawningly familiar with.

How many of you are aware you've seen literally dozens of depictions of Satan disguised so you wouldn't know you're cheering him on?

For example, the movie The Chronicles of Riddick. The bad guys in the Chronicles of Riddick are the Necromongers. They're a religious order that fly around in crucifix-shaped ships looking for the Underverse. They "crusade" across the star systems telling people they must "convert or die". Their deity is a three-faced trinity. Their leader, the Lord Marshal, has died and been born again and is now neither living nor dead but "something else". They are, in short, Catholics in space with a zombie Jesus figure in charge.

But if they're the bad guys does that mean Riddick is Satan? Yes. Yes it does. Riddick is depicted with the hallmarks of the adversary from various religious traditions.

He is captured and confined to Crematoria (Hell) from whence he must escape for the "day of days" fight with the Lord Marshal (his own words).

He is suspended in Crematoria, just like Satan is said to be suspended perpetually falling into Hell eternally in some traditions and the Lord Marshal even says "your fall will be eternal".

He falls in Crematoria. Satan is a fallen angel, he is always depicted in the inverted hermeneutic as literally falling.

He is destined to fight the Necromongers. Riddick's entire race refused to bow the knee to the Lord Marshal. The Furyans are the fallen rebel angels of Satan.

He is immensely skilled with weapons. In the inverted hermeneutic Satan is always depicted as a skilled fighter due to one of the fallen angels of the Book of Enoch, Azazel, being credited with teaching mankind the art of combat.

He was confined to a pit and is hurt by the light. Riddick was initially imprisoned in a penal mine and had his eyes doctored to see in the dark and is now hurt by the light. Azazel was cast into a pit and buried under rock and is likewise hurt by the light.

He performs a false miracle to come back from the dead. He shields himself with an opponent's body and pretends to be dead, only to come back and haunt the bad guys.

And so on. There's a checklist of attributes of Satan that are used when portraying Satan and if you stick half a dozen up there, those in the know know just who they're watching.

And Riddick is just one example.

Martin Riggs in Lethal Weapon, just like Riddick

Falls when handcuffed to the suicide nut when handcuffed from a building

Is suspended and tormented under a shower by the bad guys

Is immensely skilled with weapons being one of the 8-10 best snipers in the world.

Performs a false miracle by "coming back from the dead" after stopping a shotgun round with his flak vest.

And just like Riddick who tells the imam in Pitch Black he believes in God and just hates him, Riggs tells Murtaugh to "hate God back, it works for me".

Oh and who does Riggs fight, at Christmas time, in LA? That would be a corrupt general whose side he initially fought on and his chief henchman Joshua (which is the same as Yeheshua which is the Hebrew name of Jesus). In fact, when Joshua is tortured for no good reason other than to lampshade who he is, the guy watching says "Jesus Christ" half a dozen times. They are, quite literally, telling you who the character is whom you are watching being tortured.

Similarly, Shane Black who scripted Lethal Weapon and who in interview has said he's fascinated by "fallen" heroes, reprised the character of Riggs with Joe Hallenbeck in The Last Boy Scout.

And on it goes. You can play this game yourself with a lot of Hollywood movies, preferably ones with two male characters who are based on Shemyaza and Azazel from the Book of Enoch.

Han Solo and Luke Skywalker - fall down chasms, check, threatened with a 1000 years of torment in a pit, check, blinded temporarily by the light after encasement in carbonite rock, check, etc etc. And who are they fighting? Oh that's the Godlike Emperor and his right hand man who was born without conception, was prophesied to be born, talked to temple elders as a youngster, stormed the same temple as an adult, is obsessed with life over death and actually quotes the words of Jesus in the gospel of Matthew in the final prequel. Star Wars is the story of the rebel angels, told from the rebel angels point of view and they even tell you it happened a long time ago.

This is, by far, my favourite conspiracy theory I've ever come across and I like it because it's testable anytime you sit down to watch a film.

Anyway, apologies for length but I find this theory very interesting and thought I'd put it out there so everyone can enjoy it.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 15:58, 38 replies)

You know the OMG cat?
That's my face now.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:21, closed)

Is that...
... OMG that's the most retarded thing I've ever read?

or

... OMG that's actually got something going for it?
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:24, closed)

I'm flabbergasted that you've obviously gone to some lengths in thinking this through.
It's not a bad thing, just sort of, 'Wow!', type thing.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:47, closed)

It's not my theory,
I came across it on the netz as I read conspiracy theories for fun. But this one came with a "here's what I've noticed, here's what to watch for, go and test it out to see if it's true" invitation which I thought would be fun to try.

So I watched Pitch Black, Chronicles of Riddick, Lethal Weapon and The Last Boy Scout and thought to myself "actually, this does seem to work".

I plan to watch Kiss Kiss Bang Bang soon as that's another Shane Black movie with two male leads. If that fits the pattern I'll know Shane Black at least is actually kinda weird.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:50, closed)

It would be 'interesting' if the theories could be applied to something like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang for instance

(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:59, closed)

The theory can be applied to any genre of film
The guy whose theory this is says that Hollywood 60% of the time is telling the stories of about 8 or 9 religious/mythological figures over and over again and all they do is tweak the setting and the genre just enough so that you don't notice unless you've been handed the key to unlock it.

So yes, kids movies too like the Road to El Dorado, can contain these religio-mythic retellings. But they don't do it with every film. They don't make every film and it seems to be mainly the work of certain studios, such as Warner Brothers, Legendary Pictures and those affiliated with them.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:06, closed)

Debbie Does Dallas?

( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:09, closed)

I haven't seen it
But by all means if you can get hold of a copy, you can see if it matches the formula.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:10, closed)

ahh chitty chitty bang bang
my granddad used to to sing that on his way to bed prostitutes with the chits he earned in the war =)
( Steerable_forehead Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration,don't fail me now, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:26, closed)

Interesting read
I'm already trying to think of others.
(TheManWithThePlan cussed your mum on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:27, closed)

I can supply you with a few more that also fit the bill
Danny and Peachy in The Man Who Would Be King, venture to a far off country where they are mistaken for gods. One of them is cast down a pit while the other is burned "for a 1000 years". One of them "miraculously" survives a fatal wound due to his British army chest armour. They teach the natives the art of war, just as Azazel taught humanity the art of war. And so on.

This film was remade in a sci-fi setting as Stargate with one of the characters retaining the same name, Danny. But what befalls Daniel and Kurt Russell's characters mirrors what happens to two in TMWWBK. Mistaken for gods etc etc.

This was then remade as The Road to El Dorado, an animated Disney feature, but it's again, the exploits of the same two characters.

There's a checklist of attributes that, once you know them, becomes almost impossible not to notice. They can never get all the attributes in every given movie becuase the genres change, some don't allow supernatural stuff and whatnot, but they always manage at least half a dozen.

If you ever see the hero fall, hang and survive a seemingly fatal wound so that his enemies think he's dead, it's a safe bet you have a candidate for one of the inverted hermeneutic movies.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:35, closed)

I like this.
I like it a lot.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:33, closed)

Did satan ever kill anyone with a cup?

( Smallbrainfield, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:40, closed)

Two daemons one cup?

( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:43, closed)

No, I don't believe he did
I think they put that particular scene in just to show that he could well kill you with a cup if you pissed him off by spilling his tea or something.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:44, closed)

(oneinthepink is at your cervix m'lady, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:43, closed)

With that spelling
it's a very real possibility.
(Shinigami, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 22:27, closed)

What about End Of Days
I'm pretty sure Arnold Schwarzenegger could be seen as portraying the dark one in that film.
(TheManWithThePlan cussed your mum on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:44, closed)

Nah
That film explicitly referenced the devil. This theory has it that Hollywood is shoehorning the devil into as many movies as they can without you realising they're making the devil into the hero of the piece.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 16:47, closed)

It's more likely
that there are not many original stories to chose from, so the same old clichés get recycled ad infinitum.
And, of course, the innate power we humans have to pattern match and fit our observations and experiences into our own world view.
Self delusion is our normal state of being.
( P-MONKE We're all fucked, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:04, closed)

This is very true.
One of my concerns about testing this out was to what extent I'd be undergoing confirmation bias. It's hard to tell.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:07, closed)

Withnail and I?
satans rag week?
( Steerable_forehead Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration,don't fail me now, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:28, closed)

Isn't this more or less just
'The Journey of the Hero'?
(apeloverage committed the vile act of onanism on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:35, closed)

That's been brought up before
Yes, Hollywood scriptwriters, ever since that work was published, have slavishly adhered to a formula that you can see in many many films because they're essentially lazy and it works.

There is some crossover between the hero's journey and this theory but since this particular theory focuses on very specific mythological figures (the fallen angels of the Book of Enoch and their variants) and a very specific way of communicating the story (an inverted hermeneutic, everything is reversed, the good guys are bad, the bad guys are good, where something was failed before this time it is passed and so on) then this theory is something recognisable in and of itself without needing reference to the hero's journey.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:41, closed)

It would seem that way
but with the "twist" of the inversion.

I really dont think we can credit Hollywood with an over-arching drive to subliminally change our thoughts.

The vast majority of their output conforms to a Judeao-Christian standpoint precisely because thats where the money comes from in their culture. Its why we dont really get Bollywood movies (cos we aint been brought up in Hindu culture innit).

Most of the films are so spectacularly rubbish that they are mere "chewing gum for the eyes" in any case.

So; in conclusion, its quite a natty theory but its what you get from spending too much time on the internet. People will believe any old shit if its "on the internet". I proved this by developing my own "charlatan formula" and marketed it via a newspaper article I used to write - It was amazing how many people actually thought it was real and could treat/cure their pets ailments...

In the words of Harry Nilsson "You hear what you wanna hear and see what you wanna see" (The Point).
(gearanach #wankwankwank, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:53, closed)

Again, this is one of my concerns with entertaining this theory
Normally I read conspiracy theories for pleasure and enjoy pulling them to pieces. This is one that, as the question invites, seems actually more plausible than most and I've attempted to explain why.

I see what you're saying about Hollywood catering to a market and that has actually been brought up as an objection before. I'm afraid I can't see it though for a couple of reasons; one - this is an inversion of Judaeo-Christian thought, if this theory holds they're deliberately making Satan a hero, something Christians would not stand for and two - they're not catering to anyone, you actually have to be aware of both comparative religion and the occult to see from where they are getting their inspiration.

For instance, if the theory is true and in Star Wars Han Solo is a depiction of the antichrist, the impulsive agent of chaos aka Azazel who will prepare the way for Shemyaza aka Satan (in this case Luke, the spiritual leader) then Chewbacca is analagous to the figure Al-Jassassah, a being who accompanies the antichrist in the Quran and who is "so hairy, one cannot tell his front from his back".

Now it could just be coincidence that the character suspected of being analagous to the antichrist happens to have a being that sounds very much like the companion of the Islamic antichrist but then you have to put that together with the fact that he's fighting against a guy who was immaculately conceived, spoke to temple elders, stormed the same table as an adult and quotes Jesus.

There comes a point when coincidence starts to seem a little too planned.

Which is why I'm pretty damn certain George Lucas at least knew what he was writing.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 18:05, closed)

Hahahahaha
George Lucas - PUPPETMASTER!
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Dec 2011, 12:31, closed)

Behold, I shall shew unto you that George Lucas
is privy to insider knowledge

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8273050/George-Lucas-says-world-will-end-in-2012.html
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Fri 2 Dec 2011, 12:47, closed)

I would refer you to the below if nobody else has already.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces
( Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:42, closed)

Read it
See the reply above
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 17:44, closed)

Well, it's not really a conspiracy theory, is it?
More like a theory about how some scripts work, and - if you push it hard enough - a theory about how all scripts work, as long as you're prepared to ignore the scripts that don't fit this model. I don't see any need to invoke a conspiracy.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 21:07, closed)

I think the conspiracy comes in where "some scripts"
are those which are specifically written with this in mind. And it's not claiming that all scripts fit this template, merely that a large number of them by certain studios fit this template and have done since at least the 70's.
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Tue 6 Dec 2011, 18:10, closed)

But how do you tell those written with this in mind
from those that accord with the alleged template because it makes for a satisfying story? And if some do just happen to accord with the template because it makes for a satisfying story, why invoke the hypothesis that there's a group written specifically to reflect the template? Why not just ditch the template hypothesis altogether? You'd be no worse off.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 6 Dec 2011, 22:49, closed)

You mean how do you tell those films that follow this alleged template deliberately
from those that follow this template accidentally? Would you say that the religious theme and motifs found in The Chronicles of Riddick as outlined above to be accidental or deliberate? I think it's safe to say that we can assume all that to be up on screen quite deliberately, both the dialogue, the prologue by Judy Dench and the imagery. It's all very deliberate on the part of the scriptwriter and director both.

So when we see essentially the same things happening to a similar character and the thing that is changed is genre and milieu should we chalk it up to coincidence? Or should we say this is the same story retold in a different setting? Just as West Side Story is really Romeo and Juliet, just shifted to the US with musical numbers added.

The guy who came up with this theory is not a Star Wars fan. He'd only seen the first Star Wars when it was initially released. However, he still had an inkling, because of who he was up against, that Darth Vader was actually the Jesus figure of an inverted retelling of the fallen angels vs God. So he got his hands on the entire six movies and watched them all. And of course he noted that Darth/Anakin was a prophesied child, born without an apparent father, who met the temple elders and so on and so forth.

Did he have a lucky guess? No, he'd worked it out just from seeing the first film. It would seem that Lucas had in mind from the very first film exactly what Darth's origin story would be; that he knew in '75 what he had to film in '97.

Perhaps the best way to tell, I would suggest, which films aren't deliberately following a template is accounted for in the initial hypothesis. There's a checklist of identifiers or attributes for the antichrist if you wish to portray this character in fiction. It stands to reason that other characters might share one or two such identifiers, perhaps even three or four. But when you're consistenly seeing six or more in movie after movie you have to ask yourself just how frequently do you allow coincidences to be before you stop calling it coincidence?
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Wed 7 Dec 2011, 2:11, closed)

But if Anakin's really Jesus...
Who's Chewbacca supposed to be?
(Mr Gronk, Thu 1 Dec 2011, 21:29, closed)

Bungle
with a metal sash.
( Rotating Wobbly Hat That's not a banana. THIS is a banana., Thu 1 Dec 2011, 22:32, closed)

In the Quran
The antichrist is accompanied by a being called Al-Jassassah (which I believe means The Assassin). Al-Jassassah is described as "a being so furry one cannot tell it's front from it's back".
(Dildo Bugger destroyed a ring on, Fri 2 Dec 2011, 9:54, closed)

I hope that being isn't a girl
or there will be hygiene issues when it comes to bum-wiping.
It should be fairly easy to tell, just look for its little furry winkle.
(Rsoles, Fri 2 Dec 2011, 20:08, closed)