more to do with common sense and not being fucking stupid I reckon
Sadly I just don't think that's true.The uncomfortable fact is, in the recent past many reasonable law-abiding citizens have been illegally detained, threatened, and physically hurt for taking part in legal, peaceful protests.
Common sense tells you that if you obey the law the police will protect you, not illegally abuse you. Exercising common sense and obeying the law is no longer a guarantee of safety from the worst excesses of the police.
(Common sense tells you that if you obey the law the police will protect you, not illegally abuse you. Exercising common sense and obeying the law is no longer a guarantee of safety from the worst excesses of the police.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:05,
archived)
I'm not talking about that... I'll admit the protesting/kettling thing is a difficult one to call...
But nothing happens in isolation.As I've said above, you just cannot realistically expect any society to behave lawfully if the upholders of the law do not. Every single incidence of illegal and/or heavy-handed police activity erodes their position as upholders of peace and the rule of law a little futher. That is a dangerous thing to happen, and the current situation is in no way unrelated to that fact.
Very very clearly, there are a large number of people involved in the current situation who are just assholes looking for an opportunity to steal and destroy. But the underlying disaffected mood of many people in the UK did not appear overnight, nor did their distrust and anger at authority, and it is not entirely without cause.
(Very very clearly, there are a large number of people involved in the current situation who are just assholes looking for an opportunity to steal and destroy. But the underlying disaffected mood of many people in the UK did not appear overnight, nor did their distrust and anger at authority, and it is not entirely without cause.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:33,
archived)
That is verychicken and egg. Do the police overstep the mark causing riots, or do riots cause the police to overstep the mark?
As i rarely break the law, it doesn't seem to affect me much, which might be a clue.
(As i rarely break the law, it doesn't seem to affect me much, which might be a clue.
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:42,
archived)
The answer of course is that the police must not overstep the mark.They are there to uphold the rule of law, and if that means breaking the law themselves, then by definition that can never work, can it?
The UK is a fairly robust democracy, at least on the surface. If the current laws don't work, they can be changed.
Really though, it will make no difference if the methods of policing and enforcement do not change for the better.
If you really don't think there's a problem with current methods then I guess we're never going to find any common ground. Personally though I think there's a situation in the UK now that echoes that in some parts of the US, for instance Baltimore, where the cops are basically at war with a large section of society. You don't have to be a genius to see where that goes: it just escalates.
(The UK is a fairly robust democracy, at least on the surface. If the current laws don't work, they can be changed.
Really though, it will make no difference if the methods of policing and enforcement do not change for the better.
If you really don't think there's a problem with current methods then I guess we're never going to find any common ground. Personally though I think there's a situation in the UK now that echoes that in some parts of the US, for instance Baltimore, where the cops are basically at war with a large section of society. You don't have to be a genius to see where that goes: it just escalates.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:57,
archived)
I hear what you say.But to quote an old cliche, with freedom comes responsibility. Yes, the police should follow the law. But so should I. And so should you. And so should Fred down the road. What right do I have to break the law then whinge if the police do the same?
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:08,
archived)
"Two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mindif we're going to communicate through the medium of cliches.
It would probably be better to drop the cliches and make a nuanced argument, though. Should the police break the law, in a crisis, in order to uphold some other laws? On the face of it, that seems a logical contradiction. It says that one law is more important than the other. Then again, this is possibly true. Both ways of breaking the law are presumably undesirable, though, or supposed to be, otherwise they'd be legal. So what are you actually advocating, that the police do break the law, or that they stick to it, or that they're not treated too harshly if they break the law with good intentions? I suspect you're arguing for the last thing: which is what actually happens, for the police, and for anybody else who breaks the law with good intentions, too. I don't imagine Mofaha would be opposed to lenient treatment of people who break the law in that way, either.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:22,
archived)
It would probably be better to drop the cliches and make a nuanced argument, though. Should the police break the law, in a crisis, in order to uphold some other laws? On the face of it, that seems a logical contradiction. It says that one law is more important than the other. Then again, this is possibly true. Both ways of breaking the law are presumably undesirable, though, or supposed to be, otherwise they'd be legal. So what are you actually advocating, that the police do break the law, or that they stick to it, or that they're not treated too harshly if they break the law with good intentions? I suspect you're arguing for the last thing: which is what actually happens, for the police, and for anybody else who breaks the law with good intentions, too. I don't imagine Mofaha would be opposed to lenient treatment of people who break the law in that way, either.
No, i'm not advocating that.I believe anyone who breaks the law should face justice, police or public. What I'd like is that no-one broke the law. What i'm getting at is the criminals who say 'OK I mugged 20 old ladies but that copper hit me while I resisted arrest! The police are evil and shouldn't be allowed to do that'. Which is actually quite a common statement.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:33,
archived)
So to clarifyyou think the police really shouldn't be allowed to do that (assuming there's a law against it) - but they aren't evil. Is that correct?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:36,
archived)
?I don't get your clarification. No, the police are not evil, and yes, if they break the law they should face the consequences. But I also don't expect them to be superheroes. I fully expect that here and there a mugger will get a punch that is illegal. I'm not a mugger so won't lose too much sleep.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:44,
archived)
Just trying to work out what the disagreement was.I thought at first you were arguing about what should or shouldn't be allowed, but now it seems more as if the subject was "how likeable are protesters?".
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:59,
archived)
Absolutely.In a just society, motive and intention would be taken into account when dispensing justice.
( mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:53,
archived)
You talk of common sense.Common sense tells me that if you allow 5,000 angry people to wander around the streets of London trying to make a point by non democratic means, who are then joined by 'rent-a-mob' and the Socialist Worker louts, then there is going to be trouble.
Please tell, how SHOULD that be dealt with?
(Please tell, how SHOULD that be dealt with?
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:27,
archived)
In my mind this situation is analogous to sitting watching until the milk boils over on the stove, then panicking and calling in the fire brigade. Too much, too late.
Clearly the current situation needs to be contained, and it will be, as it always is; with increasing violence, until it becomes too dangerous and unattractive for people to take part in any more.
And then everything will go back to how it was before. Realistically, the only thing that will come out of this is tougher laws, and as an isolated solution that's never worked before, and it never will in the future, unless those laws are so severe and draconian as to allow no possibility of dissent. Do you want to live in a society like that? I suspect not.
(Clearly the current situation needs to be contained, and it will be, as it always is; with increasing violence, until it becomes too dangerous and unattractive for people to take part in any more.
And then everything will go back to how it was before. Realistically, the only thing that will come out of this is tougher laws, and as an isolated solution that's never worked before, and it never will in the future, unless those laws are so severe and draconian as to allow no possibility of dissent. Do you want to live in a society like that? I suspect not.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:45,
archived)
agreedi'm sat in work wondering what happened to my seemingly normal colleagues who apparently now would be happy to have a curfew in place in London backed up by the army with shoot-to-kill orders. WTF? I get the fact that people are angry and scared, but seriously, the army on the street?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:48,
archived)
We make the laws.What was the turnout in Tottenham at the last general election? How many candidates were there? The ability to change society is in place. Up to you if you use it, but don't come smashing my windows if you don't and then don't like the result.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:55,
archived)
Do you really believe this?"The ability to change society is in place"
because, unless you're an ex-public school, Oxbridge-educated, silver-spoon sucking toff, it really isn't to all practical ends.
Look at the make up of Government, look at the key influencers of Goverment and legislation (step forward Mr Murdoch), look at the transfer of wealth to the top 0.5% of the population in the last 20 years, look at the level of inequality in society since the second world war (or even the first). then wonder why huge sections of society are balanced on a knife edge.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:00,
archived)
because, unless you're an ex-public school, Oxbridge-educated, silver-spoon sucking toff, it really isn't to all practical ends.
Look at the make up of Government, look at the key influencers of Goverment and legislation (step forward Mr Murdoch), look at the transfer of wealth to the top 0.5% of the population in the last 20 years, look at the level of inequality in society since the second world war (or even the first). then wonder why huge sections of society are balanced on a knife edge.
Damn right i believe it.Show me where you were stopped from voting for the person of your choice, or even standing for yourself for election. Show me.
EDIT: This country allows the Monster Raving Looney Party to stand. Don't try to say you can't be represented.
(EDIT: This country allows the Monster Raving Looney Party to stand. Don't try to say you can't be represented.
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:13,
archived)
I hope you're being facetious."Democracy" doesn't work that way. In my local elections, there were no Green candidates, no MRLP. I had a choice of one LibDem, two Labour, two Tories and some crank from UKIP.
There's also the fiasco of how three votes can become the majority of ten (if the votes split 3/2/2/1/1/1 across the candidates.)
Also, what's more democratic than mob rule?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 22:33,
archived)
There's also the fiasco of how three votes can become the majority of ten (if the votes split 3/2/2/1/1/1 across the candidates.)
Also, what's more democratic than mob rule?
So why didn't you stand?A vote is a privilege we are lucky enough to have in this country, but that does promote a propensity to say 'I voted' and use that as an example of (practically passive) engagement in the political process. Which it is (an engagement that is), but if you want a Green or MRLP candidate in your constituency and there isn't one, then get in touch with them and offer to stand. Instead of whining that it's so unfair that the policies you support aren't represented, represent them.
I still haven't made my mind up about AV though. It feels fair, but it also feels like nothing would get done with it in place. Maybe I'll have made up my mind by the time the referendum comes around.
Oh.
I've been listening to Ghost Town tonight.
(I still haven't made my mind up about AV though. It feels fair, but it also feels like nothing would get done with it in place. Maybe I'll have made up my mind by the time the referendum comes around.
Oh.
I've been listening to Ghost Town tonight.
gingerfreak Why? Why not.,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:04,
archived)
Oh, and the mob has nothing to with democracyas you surely know, you lovely trollomancer you.
( gingerfreak Why? Why not.,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:07,
archived)
So it is 'their' fault.They are you. You are they. If you had wanted, you could have had 150 candidates. All you need to do is get off your arse, along with 149 friends, and stand. Perhaps the Green party didn't stand in your area because the Green Party knew that nobody in your area was interested in the Green Party. For good reason; the Green Party haven't a clue. As for the split vote; there was a democratic effort to change the entire voting system recently. About 30% of people bothered, and only about 10% of them understood it.
You can get off yer bum and riot, or get off yer bum and change it.
(You can get off yer bum and riot, or get off yer bum and change it.
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:00,
archived)
Yes. Because we all have access to huge amounts of money to back our political campaigns.We're just being feckless.
(
4Q just lurking,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:12,
archived)
If you are in the rightyou will get plenty of support, easy. If you are in the wrong, the people with money might not support you. Tell me your policies. Tell everyone. Let us see if everyone agrees. Most people on here have an icon, so have disposable cash.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 1:42,
archived)
Damn fucking straight you areIf you have a problem get up off your arse and solve it. Sundae is spot on, its not someone else's problem. It's yours.
(
Throat And Ice Pie I see dem tatties dere.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:14,
archived)