mind if I pea in your thread, Joliet reminded me I did this and that it was very apt right now
HappyToast Groat froth,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:34,
archived)
and they're about 17 feet tall, apparently
Smash Monkey lowering the tone of the whole internet,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:36,
archived)
lanky grannies are just a decoyit's the midget dentists we have to watch out for
( Smash Monkey lowering the tone of the whole internet,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:40,
archived)
You really wouldn't believe how true that is...one of the most uncomfortable things i've ever had to wear
(
Another_tragic_case wished he hadn't eaten all the cake,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 8:35,
archived)
Not sure how literally you intend thisbut I think it's a bit idealistic, dewy-eyed, and unrealistic Toasty.
This is the age of illegally kettling peaceful protests at one end of the spectrum, and illegally protecting the aims of corrupt corporations at the other. I think the days of "a few bad apples" are over; the problems are institutionalized now.
(This is the age of illegally kettling peaceful protests at one end of the spectrum, and illegally protecting the aims of corrupt corporations at the other. I think the days of "a few bad apples" are over; the problems are institutionalized now.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:45,
archived)
Agreedbut that doesn't alter the fact that there are a lot of good people out there doing a decent job because they care.
(
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:46,
archived)
And then they hate the police because nothing gets recovered and there's no conviction?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 22:17,
archived)
SecondedSorry but the MET police (at least) are useless. Not fit for purpose. Couldn't care less if you've been burgled or mugged. As for bike theft... your fault for having a bike, here's your claim number.
(,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 19:18,
archived)
I don't thinkthat has anything to do with the average copper on the street. If there had been a little kettling in the last few days, the situation might be different. If there hadn't been kettling at earlier protests, there might have been riots like this. I'm glad i don't have to make the choices.
(
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:52,
archived)
here... don't come around here with your balanced view and logicI wont stand for it
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:57,
archived)
SorryI forgot where i was.
Hope this helps. www.b3ta.com/links/664714
(Hope this helps. www.b3ta.com/links/664714
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:59,
archived)
Right, it's the schmoozing at the top and private old-boys-clubs like ACPO.What rot there is is only filtering down from the top.
(
joefish It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:57,
archived)
ACPO have to one of the most nefarious and secretive organizations in the country. with real power yet unelected and unaccountable. fuckers should be banned.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:46,
archived)
it's a difficult job, no doubtthe two young girls hand-picked by the bbc as spokepeople for the riots have valid economic and social reasons for the disorder, though they clearly express those views in a pretty unarticulate manner. The current government has eroded the rights of many and for the people that don't have much to be eroded, that causes desperation. These riots reflect a large "group" of people ignored by the government, not simply "wanton violence" or "no economic or social excuse" as the bbc and government are hell-bent on painting it. It is a reaction to socioeconomic disenfranchisement which has been brought on by the current government, not by facebook, not "just chavs being chavs" etc
what I mean is, I don't think the police are the target of this, nor should they be.
(what I mean is, I don't think the police are the target of this, nor should they be.
drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:01,
archived)
I find it interestingThat the riots have not yet extended to Southall and Wembley. Both areas could claim huge amounts of young people 'outside' white middle class society; not in touch with the police or government. And yet they are not smashing windows. I'm guessing, but perhaps the Asian community know where their bread is buttered and that smashing up cars and shops owned by neighbours is pretty stupid. So I think I disagree.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:13,
archived)
but are these looters from the local area?I-for-one wouldn't be shitting on my own doorstep
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:17,
archived)
You think those two girls interviewedcould navigate?
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:20,
archived)
But on the other handcunts like Ian Blair thinking they are politicians not cooperate hasn't done the force many favours.
( Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:14,
archived)
What eroded rights are you thinking of?This is not a rhetorical question, I just wanted to know.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:29,
archived)
take a look at RIPA for startersThen try walking along in central London on your way home and getting batoned then shoved to the ground by a nutter in full riot gear.
Even if that doesn't happen you get kettled. I am guessing those middle class lefty people weren't carrying iron bars and looked like fairly easy targets. If they had been tooled up there may have been a bit more standing by the sidelines.
Dont get me wrong, I have felt compassion for the police force for the first time in a long time after seeing what has been happening but these people have proven they are dangerous so they get left to if for days on end. Would not want to be a copper at the moment but I would not want to be a copper full stop.
Maybe a quick way of dealing with the looters would be to take the same approach as was taken during the expenses scandal. Their court appointed lawyer would address the court advising "my client has returned everything he stole and trusts that will be the end of the matter".
(,
Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:51,
archived)
Even if that doesn't happen you get kettled. I am guessing those middle class lefty people weren't carrying iron bars and looked like fairly easy targets. If they had been tooled up there may have been a bit more standing by the sidelines.
Dont get me wrong, I have felt compassion for the police force for the first time in a long time after seeing what has been happening but these people have proven they are dangerous so they get left to if for days on end. Would not want to be a copper at the moment but I would not want to be a copper full stop.
Maybe a quick way of dealing with the looters would be to take the same approach as was taken during the expenses scandal. Their court appointed lawyer would address the court advising "my client has returned everything he stole and trusts that will be the end of the matter".
The kids in London are not doing it out of social disenfranchisementor pololotics, or because they're making a statement against the capitalist hegemony, they're doing it because they can get fashionable trainers and iPods for free.
This is why all the bookshops have been left alone, but JD Sports and PC World have taken the massive brunt of the violence.
This is not a political issue, it is about the underclass children of at least two generations, who have been raised to hate the police, what their rights are, and where to get their benefits, claiming what's theirs.
Only it isn't fucking theirs.
See that old lady on the street? FUCK HER! She perpetuated The System! LET'S BUST INTO HER FLAT AND GET HER FUCKING TELLY BECAUSE WE'RE ALL EQUAL NOW AND I SHOULD GET MINE!
You know that guy doing night shifts at the factory for the past year to pay for his kids child support? FUCK HIM! FUCKING IDIOT SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT HIS KID!
It's fucking pathetic trying to justify this - it's just cunts being cunts, nothing more - nothing clever, nothing political - it's just kids stealing, because they can, because they know that no one will touch them. Because they're disenfranchised, innit.
(This is why all the bookshops have been left alone, but JD Sports and PC World have taken the massive brunt of the violence.
This is not a political issue, it is about the underclass children of at least two generations, who have been raised to hate the police, what their rights are, and where to get their benefits, claiming what's theirs.
Only it isn't fucking theirs.
See that old lady on the street? FUCK HER! She perpetuated The System! LET'S BUST INTO HER FLAT AND GET HER FUCKING TELLY BECAUSE WE'RE ALL EQUAL NOW AND I SHOULD GET MINE!
You know that guy doing night shifts at the factory for the past year to pay for his kids child support? FUCK HIM! FUCKING IDIOT SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT HIS KID!
It's fucking pathetic trying to justify this - it's just cunts being cunts, nothing more - nothing clever, nothing political - it's just kids stealing, because they can, because they know that no one will touch them. Because they're disenfranchised, innit.
Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:47,
archived)
I completely disagree.but you've obviously enjoyed the BBC's coverage, so it may be too late for me to sway your point of view.
My point was written in a rush before I had to go off to work, so apologies for the late reply.
I am just unable to take your black and white viewpoint seriously, that it's simply cunts being cunts. I see the looting as a symptom of the widespread anger at various problems in British society cuts, erosion of the benefit services, lack of job opportunities, poor standards of health care and education in deprived areas, poor community education and community development in deprived areas, shocking standards of housing, lack of trust for the police in light of recent media stories and negative personal experiences with police etc. I think it is incredibly superficial to see the disorder as simply because they all want to go thieving, though the dissemination of this point of view suits the government very well in influencing opinion against the rioters, should some people think that it's somehow got something to do with the government (surely not!).
I did not seek to justify any violence/theft/fireraising, only suggested a reason for it, that is, that a large social group feels it has no future and no place in society and are showing that they will not be ignored any longer.
Then again, it feels much better to just say it's "just cunts being cunts" and that it has nothing to do with wider societal problems.
(My point was written in a rush before I had to go off to work, so apologies for the late reply.
I am just unable to take your black and white viewpoint seriously, that it's simply cunts being cunts. I see the looting as a symptom of the widespread anger at various problems in British society cuts, erosion of the benefit services, lack of job opportunities, poor standards of health care and education in deprived areas, poor community education and community development in deprived areas, shocking standards of housing, lack of trust for the police in light of recent media stories and negative personal experiences with police etc. I think it is incredibly superficial to see the disorder as simply because they all want to go thieving, though the dissemination of this point of view suits the government very well in influencing opinion against the rioters, should some people think that it's somehow got something to do with the government (surely not!).
I did not seek to justify any violence/theft/fireraising, only suggested a reason for it, that is, that a large social group feels it has no future and no place in society and are showing that they will not be ignored any longer.
Then again, it feels much better to just say it's "just cunts being cunts" and that it has nothing to do with wider societal problems.
drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:28,
archived)
There have always beenlarge social groups suffering in one way or another but the reaction to this situation doesn't follow a pattern of social expression, it appears to be opportunistic, 'safety in numbers' muppetry the likes of which has been created by a succession of enfranchising expansions in rights and expectations over the last century or so. To suggest that this type of situation isn't black and white is actually a little bit off target as it bears few of the hallmarks of popular uprisings the likes of which we have seen in the 'Arab spring' (but also ambling back through time to the Russian revolution) where there was a focus to the turmoil not merely a push to self serving anarchy amongst a small corps of the population.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:07,
archived)
in your opinion, it's off target.I am simply suggesting an underlying problem, in my opinion. I don't think, due to the disorganised nature of the uprising, for one reason or another, that there will ever be a stated common point to the violence in order to draw parallels with the Arab spring. Social exclusion leads to a build up of anger over time and it is expressed in however a particular collective can/wish to. The problem is caused by social exclusion, therefore it is society's and the government's problem, they created this. I would contend that these people would not be motivated to violence and looting if they had been afforded the opportunities in life available to those who sit on a messageboard at 12:55 pontificating on such subjects.
( drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:55,
archived)
Despite my rant belowA good part of me agrees with you to a point. But, as a person sitting on a messageboard at 12:55 doing just that, didn't you make your own opportunities? Are you not that person because of what you did and how you did it, rather than what The Man gave you? Why do you think it should be different for anyone else?
I will actively fight to continue to help people who need help, but at the same time I know from my own experience that there are a huge number of people shitting on my help, living on subsidised rents they don't need and haven't needed for 6 years for example. And I truly believe its those people, the ones who have had "rights" to shit on the help society gives them interfered with, that are the most aggrieved. The truly needy, the truly poor, are silent and forgotten as usual whilst all our attention and money is focussed on fighting, silencing, or pandering to the brats with a sense of entitlement.
(I will actively fight to continue to help people who need help, but at the same time I know from my own experience that there are a huge number of people shitting on my help, living on subsidised rents they don't need and haven't needed for 6 years for example. And I truly believe its those people, the ones who have had "rights" to shit on the help society gives them interfered with, that are the most aggrieved. The truly needy, the truly poor, are silent and forgotten as usual whilst all our attention and money is focussed on fighting, silencing, or pandering to the brats with a sense of entitlement.
Throat And Ice Pie I see dem tatties dere.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:07,
archived)
"I see the looting as a symptom of the widespread anger at various problems in British society... and negative personal experiences with police etc."
At what point, exactly, do you feel that these misunderstood darlings should take personal responsibility for being violent arsonists and opportunistic thieves? Even assuming those people cheerfully looting the high-value shops in their neighborhood actually subscribe to your point of view - which is by no means certain - their actions are not really contributing towards a solution.
It's kind of you to proffer a reason to their antisocial antics, some form of lofty justification. They, themselves, have demonstrated none - other than 'woo, free telly'. They're lucky to have you as their self-appointed spokesperson, mashing out a series of clichéd post-hoc rationales for their unforgivably shitty behavior.
You honestly think the cunts nicking TVs and tracksuits, burning random properties and cars, and stealing things from the pockets of fallen 'comrades' are doing it in order to protest health care standards, or any other specific item in your laundry list of sixth-form angst?
(At what point, exactly, do you feel that these misunderstood darlings should take personal responsibility for being violent arsonists and opportunistic thieves? Even assuming those people cheerfully looting the high-value shops in their neighborhood actually subscribe to your point of view - which is by no means certain - their actions are not really contributing towards a solution.
It's kind of you to proffer a reason to their antisocial antics, some form of lofty justification. They, themselves, have demonstrated none - other than 'woo, free telly'. They're lucky to have you as their self-appointed spokesperson, mashing out a series of clichéd post-hoc rationales for their unforgivably shitty behavior.
You honestly think the cunts nicking TVs and tracksuits, burning random properties and cars, and stealing things from the pockets of fallen 'comrades' are doing it in order to protest health care standards, or any other specific item in your laundry list of sixth-form angst?
Happy Phantom has been to Hastings, Brighton, and Eastbourne too,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 2:24,
archived)
I'm suggesting it as a reason for the build up of angernot as a justification for the individuals involved.
Such social disorder is the fault of the government, make no mistake about it. I can understand people getting all angry about it and all "kill those fucking uneducated chav scum", but I think it's important to keep an eye on the real reasons, not justifications, reasons for why this is happening now. I didn't mean to sound like I sympathised with the rioters as such, I only meant to suggest that there is certainly a bigger picture than just "chavs being chavs".
(Such social disorder is the fault of the government, make no mistake about it. I can understand people getting all angry about it and all "kill those fucking uneducated chav scum", but I think it's important to keep an eye on the real reasons, not justifications, reasons for why this is happening now. I didn't mean to sound like I sympathised with the rioters as such, I only meant to suggest that there is certainly a bigger picture than just "chavs being chavs".
drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:34,
archived)
I can only say to you what I say to everyoneSee how much the bigger picture matters to you when there are people trying to set fire to your home. This has literally been the case for some of my friends. The righteous anger of the poor, forgotten, blackberry owning, social media utilizing underclass eh? What the mainstream media is reporting becomes irrelevant when you're watching the bloke next door being beaten by kids wearing £300 trainers and designer clothing. Which they did not loot.
And yes, of course there are social problems and people with legitimate complaint, when aren't there? Personally if I have problems I sort them the fuck out rather than sitting around waiting for the government to do it for me and whingeing about the nanny state interfering with my life at the same time, whilst waiting around for a bunch of brain-dead thugs to use my malaise as an excuse to destroy people's lives and grab stuff so I can bleat about how that's the government's fault too.
Also its funny how the mainstream media are so establishment biased when it comes to reporting the riots. They were all so spot on about the cause of the financial crisis and it being solely the fault of bankers.
Massive double standards, the mainstream media.
(And yes, of course there are social problems and people with legitimate complaint, when aren't there? Personally if I have problems I sort them the fuck out rather than sitting around waiting for the government to do it for me and whingeing about the nanny state interfering with my life at the same time, whilst waiting around for a bunch of brain-dead thugs to use my malaise as an excuse to destroy people's lives and grab stuff so I can bleat about how that's the government's fault too.
Also its funny how the mainstream media are so establishment biased when it comes to reporting the riots. They were all so spot on about the cause of the financial crisis and it being solely the fault of bankers.
Massive double standards, the mainstream media.
Throat And Ice Pie I see dem tatties dere.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:57,
archived)
Yes, this is entirely due to feelings of disenfranchisement:webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QUCcfjo2mgEJ:www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/greate-variety-of-new-unopened-laptops-in-original-packigingtoshibahpcompaqasussamsung-40-rpr/84845982+greate+variety+unopened+laptops&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk
www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&pbx=1&oq=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=798l7833l0l8292l2l1l0l0l0l0l106l106l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9cf2e8405c02f145&biw=1272&bih=654
(Both now removed from their respective sites.)
Now that's how you stick it to the Man, and express your dismay at the way the country is run. None of this namby-pamby protest nonsense, just nick some shit and sell it.
(www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&pbx=1&oq=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=798l7833l0l8292l2l1l0l0l0l0l106l106l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9cf2e8405c02f145&biw=1272&bih=654
(Both now removed from their respective sites.)
Now that's how you stick it to the Man, and express your dismay at the way the country is run. None of this namby-pamby protest nonsense, just nick some shit and sell it.
flake has nothing against your right leg,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 17:18,
archived)
I didn't catch that bit on the BBCSince I live in the States; could you possibly post a video link to it?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:34,
archived)
I know half a dozen police men and women personally and I can honestly say not one of them is a bad appleby my experience (including those that have pulled me over and given me a ticket, stopped me in the street for being a bit the worse for wear and given me directions when I've asked) they are decent folk doing a very difficult job.
Granted this is no doubt a freakishly lucky number of encounters and there are some utter shits (they are people after all) but it does tell me that it isn't entirely institutionalized.
(Granted this is no doubt a freakishly lucky number of encounters and there are some utter shits (they are people after all) but it does tell me that it isn't entirely institutionalized.
HappyToast Groat froth,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:56,
archived)
also; taking money from News Corp employees Rebel biscuit stercore sumus et nos esse novimus,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 16:59,
archived)
no that was in america Rebel biscuit stercore sumus et nos esse novimus,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 22:01,
archived)
Right now I'm very glad of the policebut...I can't help noticing that when it's students, hippies and women protesting, they're all too keen to get stuck in and crack a few heads. When it's tooled-up disaffected youth rioting and looting, they get the kid gloves treatment.
(
emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:00,
archived)
... or that they weren't expecting such widespread disruption...riots don't normally increase past two days... they start to tail off...
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:06,
archived)
so... what you've basically said is "they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't"?they are lambasted for heavy handedness... then lambasted for not doing enough, and the prole up and down the country is calling for the army and rubber bullets...
its all abit "very" isn't it
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:01,
archived)
its all abit "very" isn't it
I think its more a question of being more criticalwhich is perfectly justified in my opinion considering the role police have in society and the potential power they have.
If the police can't tell the difference between a peaceful protest and a bunch of cunts smashing the place up, or a newspaper vendor walking away and a 'youth' nicking a laptop from curries then the public will be critical especially if the IPCC isn't up to the job, which it isn't.
I'm not saying I don't appreciate the job that they do
(If the police can't tell the difference between a peaceful protest and a bunch of cunts smashing the place up, or a newspaper vendor walking away and a 'youth' nicking a laptop from curries then the public will be critical especially if the IPCC isn't up to the job, which it isn't.
I'm not saying I don't appreciate the job that they do
Rebel biscuit stercore sumus et nos esse novimus,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:19,
archived)
No, what I'm basically sayingis what I've said above.
The police need to be seen to obey and respect the law. If they don't, the whole thing comes unglued. You just cannot realistically expect any society to behave lawfully if the upholders of the law do not.
(The police need to be seen to obey and respect the law. If they don't, the whole thing comes unglued. You just cannot realistically expect any society to behave lawfully if the upholders of the law do not.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:25,
archived)
but I do see police obeying and respecting the lawand while I read in the press about those who don't, that doesn't make me want to set fire to my neighbours house or destroy local businesses
( HappyToast Groat froth,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:30,
archived)
you very rarely hear about someone doing what they'r supposed to
apart from shooting someonewho didn't shoot at them then not telling the family about it. that's where this all started.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:43,
archived)
again, not belittling gross miscarriages of justicebut you cannot blame every single policeman in the country for the actions of 4 or 5 people in one specialist unit, which is what is happening.
Deal with individuals, saying "the police" are guilty is no better than saying an ethnic minority are terrorists or the way someone dresses makes him a criminal
(Deal with individuals, saying "the police" are guilty is no better than saying an ethnic minority are terrorists or the way someone dresses makes him a criminal
HappyToast Groat froth,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:46,
archived)
Anyone who joins the police, soon learns what the police are about.If they choose to to stay, they become complicit. Fuck them.
( 4Q just lurking,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:10,
archived)
My personal experience with the Policeindicates that they are complicit in helping to keep the roads safe, controlling thuggish behaviour and protecting my family members when violently intimidated by ex-husbands (among many other things, but this is only my direct experience).
That, in my view, is what they are "about" and if this is your attitude I hope that you don't ever need their services... and if you do I'm sure that they will help you out anyway.
(,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 7:22,
archived)
That, in my view, is what they are "about" and if this is your attitude I hope that you don't ever need their services... and if you do I'm sure that they will help you out anyway.
May be worth waiting for the inquestIf the guy had a loaded gun that he was pointing at a policeman then I'm not too sure that it is unreasonable for the policeman to fire first.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:53,
archived)
Yes.That absolutely justifies violent rampages through the streets resulting in the death of at least one person, millions of pounds lost to businesses, homes destroyed and social upheaval which will quite possibly last a generation.
Or... people could just wait for the inquest which happens after every fatal shooting involving the Police, and find out what actually happened.
(,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 7:18,
archived)
Or... people could just wait for the inquest which happens after every fatal shooting involving the Police, and find out what actually happened.
"illegally kettling peaceful protests at one end of the spectrum, and illegally protecting the aims of corrupt corporations at the other"^ this made me laugh.
This type of guardian-reader type opinion is exactly what gave the rioting scum the belief they can go about and do exactly what they want.
Kettling is a perfectly sensible idea, both to protect peaceful protestors (good), the police (good) and those infiltrators which always seen to appear in order to cause trouble (bad) - such as the Jody Macintyre types.
And, as a beat officer in an inner city, the closest i get to 'protecting the aims of corrupt corporations' is buying a big mac.
Really. Is this your honest opinion, brought about by many years of actual experience, or do you just spout the latest shit; drip fed from leftist liberal groups?
Why not consider joining up. Just see how you feel after doing a 20 hour shift, with no breaks, running around after scrotes. I suspect your world view will quickly change.
/end rant, but it's been a long week.
(This type of guardian-reader type opinion is exactly what gave the rioting scum the belief they can go about and do exactly what they want.
Kettling is a perfectly sensible idea, both to protect peaceful protestors (good), the police (good) and those infiltrators which always seen to appear in order to cause trouble (bad) - such as the Jody Macintyre types.
And, as a beat officer in an inner city, the closest i get to 'protecting the aims of corrupt corporations' is buying a big mac.
Really. Is this your honest opinion, brought about by many years of actual experience, or do you just spout the latest shit; drip fed from leftist liberal groups?
Why not consider joining up. Just see how you feel after doing a 20 hour shift, with no breaks, running around after scrotes. I suspect your world view will quickly change.
/end rant, but it's been a long week.
Another_tragic_case wished he hadn't eaten all the cake,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 8:42,
archived)
Join up? No thanks.I briefly toyed with the idea of applying to join the Police force (it's a force, dammit, not a service), on the basis that if I kept muttering that "someone should do something" maybe that someone ought to be me. You know, put my money where my mouth is.
And then I thought about all the awful, awful things serving Police officers have to deal with on a daily basis, things like two-week-fermented dead bodies left to rot in a flat because the neighbours didn't give a shit, things like beheaded corpses leaking blood and other fluids into a car mangled almost beyond recognition, things like spouses and children being stabbed to death, and worse. The Police have to deal with the aftermath of people at their very worst, at their most awful, and yet are supposed to remain sane themselves.
I think it takes a special kind of strength (or maybe a special kind of psychosis) to be a good Police officer. I'm not sure I have it, but I'm profoundly grateful to those who do.
A few (quite a few) years ago I was in trouble with the law, and it was my own fault. The officer who dealt with me lied on the paperwork. If he had told the truth, I might well have gone to jail. If I'd gone to jail, however briefly, who knows where I'd be now? Certainly not in a comfortable, white-collar job, earning a decent wage and trying to be a decent uncle to my nephew. That copper exercised his discretion, and in doing so may very well have saved my life.
(And then I thought about all the awful, awful things serving Police officers have to deal with on a daily basis, things like two-week-fermented dead bodies left to rot in a flat because the neighbours didn't give a shit, things like beheaded corpses leaking blood and other fluids into a car mangled almost beyond recognition, things like spouses and children being stabbed to death, and worse. The Police have to deal with the aftermath of people at their very worst, at their most awful, and yet are supposed to remain sane themselves.
I think it takes a special kind of strength (or maybe a special kind of psychosis) to be a good Police officer. I'm not sure I have it, but I'm profoundly grateful to those who do.
A few (quite a few) years ago I was in trouble with the law, and it was my own fault. The officer who dealt with me lied on the paperwork. If he had told the truth, I might well have gone to jail. If I'd gone to jail, however briefly, who knows where I'd be now? Certainly not in a comfortable, white-collar job, earning a decent wage and trying to be a decent uncle to my nephew. That copper exercised his discretion, and in doing so may very well have saved my life.
flake has nothing against your right leg,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 17:04,
archived)
more to do with common sense and not being fucking stupid I reckon
Sadly I just don't think that's true.The uncomfortable fact is, in the recent past many reasonable law-abiding citizens have been illegally detained, threatened, and physically hurt for taking part in legal, peaceful protests.
Common sense tells you that if you obey the law the police will protect you, not illegally abuse you. Exercising common sense and obeying the law is no longer a guarantee of safety from the worst excesses of the police.
(Common sense tells you that if you obey the law the police will protect you, not illegally abuse you. Exercising common sense and obeying the law is no longer a guarantee of safety from the worst excesses of the police.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:05,
archived)
I'm not talking about that... I'll admit the protesting/kettling thing is a difficult one to call...
But nothing happens in isolation.As I've said above, you just cannot realistically expect any society to behave lawfully if the upholders of the law do not. Every single incidence of illegal and/or heavy-handed police activity erodes their position as upholders of peace and the rule of law a little futher. That is a dangerous thing to happen, and the current situation is in no way unrelated to that fact.
Very very clearly, there are a large number of people involved in the current situation who are just assholes looking for an opportunity to steal and destroy. But the underlying disaffected mood of many people in the UK did not appear overnight, nor did their distrust and anger at authority, and it is not entirely without cause.
(Very very clearly, there are a large number of people involved in the current situation who are just assholes looking for an opportunity to steal and destroy. But the underlying disaffected mood of many people in the UK did not appear overnight, nor did their distrust and anger at authority, and it is not entirely without cause.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:33,
archived)
That is verychicken and egg. Do the police overstep the mark causing riots, or do riots cause the police to overstep the mark?
As i rarely break the law, it doesn't seem to affect me much, which might be a clue.
(As i rarely break the law, it doesn't seem to affect me much, which might be a clue.
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:42,
archived)
The answer of course is that the police must not overstep the mark.They are there to uphold the rule of law, and if that means breaking the law themselves, then by definition that can never work, can it?
The UK is a fairly robust democracy, at least on the surface. If the current laws don't work, they can be changed.
Really though, it will make no difference if the methods of policing and enforcement do not change for the better.
If you really don't think there's a problem with current methods then I guess we're never going to find any common ground. Personally though I think there's a situation in the UK now that echoes that in some parts of the US, for instance Baltimore, where the cops are basically at war with a large section of society. You don't have to be a genius to see where that goes: it just escalates.
(The UK is a fairly robust democracy, at least on the surface. If the current laws don't work, they can be changed.
Really though, it will make no difference if the methods of policing and enforcement do not change for the better.
If you really don't think there's a problem with current methods then I guess we're never going to find any common ground. Personally though I think there's a situation in the UK now that echoes that in some parts of the US, for instance Baltimore, where the cops are basically at war with a large section of society. You don't have to be a genius to see where that goes: it just escalates.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:57,
archived)
I hear what you say.But to quote an old cliche, with freedom comes responsibility. Yes, the police should follow the law. But so should I. And so should you. And so should Fred down the road. What right do I have to break the law then whinge if the police do the same?
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:08,
archived)
"Two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mindif we're going to communicate through the medium of cliches.
It would probably be better to drop the cliches and make a nuanced argument, though. Should the police break the law, in a crisis, in order to uphold some other laws? On the face of it, that seems a logical contradiction. It says that one law is more important than the other. Then again, this is possibly true. Both ways of breaking the law are presumably undesirable, though, or supposed to be, otherwise they'd be legal. So what are you actually advocating, that the police do break the law, or that they stick to it, or that they're not treated too harshly if they break the law with good intentions? I suspect you're arguing for the last thing: which is what actually happens, for the police, and for anybody else who breaks the law with good intentions, too. I don't imagine Mofaha would be opposed to lenient treatment of people who break the law in that way, either.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:22,
archived)
It would probably be better to drop the cliches and make a nuanced argument, though. Should the police break the law, in a crisis, in order to uphold some other laws? On the face of it, that seems a logical contradiction. It says that one law is more important than the other. Then again, this is possibly true. Both ways of breaking the law are presumably undesirable, though, or supposed to be, otherwise they'd be legal. So what are you actually advocating, that the police do break the law, or that they stick to it, or that they're not treated too harshly if they break the law with good intentions? I suspect you're arguing for the last thing: which is what actually happens, for the police, and for anybody else who breaks the law with good intentions, too. I don't imagine Mofaha would be opposed to lenient treatment of people who break the law in that way, either.
No, i'm not advocating that.I believe anyone who breaks the law should face justice, police or public. What I'd like is that no-one broke the law. What i'm getting at is the criminals who say 'OK I mugged 20 old ladies but that copper hit me while I resisted arrest! The police are evil and shouldn't be allowed to do that'. Which is actually quite a common statement.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:33,
archived)
So to clarifyyou think the police really shouldn't be allowed to do that (assuming there's a law against it) - but they aren't evil. Is that correct?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:36,
archived)
?I don't get your clarification. No, the police are not evil, and yes, if they break the law they should face the consequences. But I also don't expect them to be superheroes. I fully expect that here and there a mugger will get a punch that is illegal. I'm not a mugger so won't lose too much sleep.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:44,
archived)
Just trying to work out what the disagreement was.I thought at first you were arguing about what should or shouldn't be allowed, but now it seems more as if the subject was "how likeable are protesters?".
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:59,
archived)
Absolutely.In a just society, motive and intention would be taken into account when dispensing justice.
( mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:53,
archived)
You talk of common sense.Common sense tells me that if you allow 5,000 angry people to wander around the streets of London trying to make a point by non democratic means, who are then joined by 'rent-a-mob' and the Socialist Worker louts, then there is going to be trouble.
Please tell, how SHOULD that be dealt with?
(Please tell, how SHOULD that be dealt with?
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:27,
archived)
In my mind this situation is analogous to sitting watching until the milk boils over on the stove, then panicking and calling in the fire brigade. Too much, too late.
Clearly the current situation needs to be contained, and it will be, as it always is; with increasing violence, until it becomes too dangerous and unattractive for people to take part in any more.
And then everything will go back to how it was before. Realistically, the only thing that will come out of this is tougher laws, and as an isolated solution that's never worked before, and it never will in the future, unless those laws are so severe and draconian as to allow no possibility of dissent. Do you want to live in a society like that? I suspect not.
(Clearly the current situation needs to be contained, and it will be, as it always is; with increasing violence, until it becomes too dangerous and unattractive for people to take part in any more.
And then everything will go back to how it was before. Realistically, the only thing that will come out of this is tougher laws, and as an isolated solution that's never worked before, and it never will in the future, unless those laws are so severe and draconian as to allow no possibility of dissent. Do you want to live in a society like that? I suspect not.
mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:45,
archived)
agreedi'm sat in work wondering what happened to my seemingly normal colleagues who apparently now would be happy to have a curfew in place in London backed up by the army with shoot-to-kill orders. WTF? I get the fact that people are angry and scared, but seriously, the army on the street?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:48,
archived)
We make the laws.What was the turnout in Tottenham at the last general election? How many candidates were there? The ability to change society is in place. Up to you if you use it, but don't come smashing my windows if you don't and then don't like the result.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:55,
archived)
Do you really believe this?"The ability to change society is in place"
because, unless you're an ex-public school, Oxbridge-educated, silver-spoon sucking toff, it really isn't to all practical ends.
Look at the make up of Government, look at the key influencers of Goverment and legislation (step forward Mr Murdoch), look at the transfer of wealth to the top 0.5% of the population in the last 20 years, look at the level of inequality in society since the second world war (or even the first). then wonder why huge sections of society are balanced on a knife edge.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:00,
archived)
because, unless you're an ex-public school, Oxbridge-educated, silver-spoon sucking toff, it really isn't to all practical ends.
Look at the make up of Government, look at the key influencers of Goverment and legislation (step forward Mr Murdoch), look at the transfer of wealth to the top 0.5% of the population in the last 20 years, look at the level of inequality in society since the second world war (or even the first). then wonder why huge sections of society are balanced on a knife edge.
Damn right i believe it.Show me where you were stopped from voting for the person of your choice, or even standing for yourself for election. Show me.
EDIT: This country allows the Monster Raving Looney Party to stand. Don't try to say you can't be represented.
(EDIT: This country allows the Monster Raving Looney Party to stand. Don't try to say you can't be represented.
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:13,
archived)
I hope you're being facetious."Democracy" doesn't work that way. In my local elections, there were no Green candidates, no MRLP. I had a choice of one LibDem, two Labour, two Tories and some crank from UKIP.
There's also the fiasco of how three votes can become the majority of ten (if the votes split 3/2/2/1/1/1 across the candidates.)
Also, what's more democratic than mob rule?
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 22:33,
archived)
There's also the fiasco of how three votes can become the majority of ten (if the votes split 3/2/2/1/1/1 across the candidates.)
Also, what's more democratic than mob rule?
So why didn't you stand?A vote is a privilege we are lucky enough to have in this country, but that does promote a propensity to say 'I voted' and use that as an example of (practically passive) engagement in the political process. Which it is (an engagement that is), but if you want a Green or MRLP candidate in your constituency and there isn't one, then get in touch with them and offer to stand. Instead of whining that it's so unfair that the policies you support aren't represented, represent them.
I still haven't made my mind up about AV though. It feels fair, but it also feels like nothing would get done with it in place. Maybe I'll have made up my mind by the time the referendum comes around.
Oh.
I've been listening to Ghost Town tonight.
(I still haven't made my mind up about AV though. It feels fair, but it also feels like nothing would get done with it in place. Maybe I'll have made up my mind by the time the referendum comes around.
Oh.
I've been listening to Ghost Town tonight.
gingerfreak Why? Why not.,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:04,
archived)
Oh, and the mob has nothing to with democracyas you surely know, you lovely trollomancer you.
( gingerfreak Why? Why not.,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:07,
archived)
So it is 'their' fault.They are you. You are they. If you had wanted, you could have had 150 candidates. All you need to do is get off your arse, along with 149 friends, and stand. Perhaps the Green party didn't stand in your area because the Green Party knew that nobody in your area was interested in the Green Party. For good reason; the Green Party haven't a clue. As for the split vote; there was a democratic effort to change the entire voting system recently. About 30% of people bothered, and only about 10% of them understood it.
You can get off yer bum and riot, or get off yer bum and change it.
(You can get off yer bum and riot, or get off yer bum and change it.
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:00,
archived)
Yes. Because we all have access to huge amounts of money to back our political campaigns.We're just being feckless.
( 4Q just lurking,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:12,
archived)
If you are in the rightyou will get plenty of support, easy. If you are in the wrong, the people with money might not support you. Tell me your policies. Tell everyone. Let us see if everyone agrees. Most people on here have an icon, so have disposable cash.
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 1:42,
archived)
Damn fucking straight you areIf you have a problem get up off your arse and solve it. Sundae is spot on, its not someone else's problem. It's yours.
( Throat And Ice Pie I see dem tatties dere.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:14,
archived)
Well you've started a thread with some srs biznz in it up there....!!II'v read it all so far and opinions do vary....
I'm not going to comment on the picture at all...
But my comment for the entire thread is......
I'm happier that we have policemen then I would be if we didn't.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:40,
archived)
I'm not going to comment on the picture at all...
But my comment for the entire thread is......
I'm happier that we have policemen then I would be if we didn't.
they're alright on their ownit's when they get together in their gangs that they're trouble :(
(
cakeburglar still bored with Freebase,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 18:10,
archived)
Here Here......now let them do their job and smack these airheads around the back of the head with their big stick. Not allowing them to do so infringes on my human rights.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 22:24,
archived)
That's a bit long windedHow about.
"The Police! Don't be too surprised if they behave like cunts"
("The Police! Don't be too surprised if they behave like cunts"
Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard.,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 22:59,
archived)
...I love it when the police complain about mountains of paperwork....
If there predecessors' hadn't been such racist bastards in past none of paperwork would of been needed.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:45,
archived)
If there predecessors' hadn't been such racist bastards in past none of paperwork would of been needed.
A bit late, I knowBut this is more than a wee bit awesome
Bobbies have been demonised recently, I don't get it... it seems that the stock response when anything kicks off now is to blame the police. How do people expect them to do their jobs when they received no support from the communities they are sworn to protect...
This country has things backwards and a lot of its people really should take a long, hard look at themselves
(,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 12:45,
archived)
Bobbies have been demonised recently, I don't get it... it seems that the stock response when anything kicks off now is to blame the police. How do people expect them to do their jobs when they received no support from the communities they are sworn to protect...
This country has things backwards and a lot of its people really should take a long, hard look at themselves
OI! Some of us mentals get very upset about the bad press. FeralCatMan Unusual disease collector.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 14:15,
archived)
What a coincidence.I like beating up police and old ladies.
(
Zak McFlimby Twibbling @McFlimby,
Thu 11 Aug 2011, 9:27,
archived)