Ok, using this as a chance to clear a few things up:
1.) To those who ask, Yes, I am a Freemason.
2.) However, no, I am not part of any 'shadowy elite'.
3.) Evil Satan Worshippers? No, not us. We don't sacrifice Goats. The only reason creatures like Goats got brought into the whole 'evils of masonry' thing pursued by the anti-masonry brigade was because the acronym G.O.A.T. is often used in older texts to describe the 'God Of All Things'. The link to Goats is probably where all the 'satanic worhsip' guff started as well. (Look up 'Taxil Hoax' for further info. on that)
4.) And neither do we have anything to do with defiling naked virgins either, though not for want of trying on a Saturday night.
5.) Large amounts of the arguments against freemasonry are usually presented with 'proof' from older texts such as that of Albert Pike in his book 'Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry'. This book was published in 1871, yup 138 years ago. I can assure you that modern Freemasonry bears little resemblance to some of the 'assumed' points being made in that text. As with all things, it evolves with time to suit the time.
6.) Likewise, although we do have the handshakes and rolled up trouserlegs, we do not have any obligation to financially benefit other masons as a preference to others.
7.) Such is the modern nature of the organisation, it is made up of many individuals, from every part of the social, financial and political spectrum. When you meet up once a month, we're all on the same level, and it's a nice place to get to know different people well, pretty much in the same way as a Golf Club, a Women's Insitute meeting or similar.
8.) Each of us are prohibited from discussing Politics and Religion during a meeting evening, which would make it extrememly difficult for us to make plans to control the rest of the world's population since these two topics are probably the two most important in establishing any form of control over a population.
9.) Estimating, the average age of the British freemason is seriously pushing 60+. It's very difficult to entertain the notion that some of these people who are also part of the 'higher' degrees could seriously be part of a group in a position to manage and control the world when they can't even manage a bowl of tomato soup at the after meeting meal without spilling two thirds of it down their white shirts.
10.) It's surprisingly open these days, and certainly a world away from the writings of Pike (mentioned above) and the old attitudes that it was a preserve of the rich only. It really isn't. Many lodges often put on an 'open evening' when members of the public can walk in and have a look at a ceremony being performed, many times in full, and get a full Q & A session afterwards.
11.) Now the 'secrets' - Yes, as an organisation there are a few words etc which we don't reveal until someone comes in, but these are very few, and only applicable to the key parts of each ceremony. It really is no biggy. Anyone can become a mason, and as I've said before it's far more difficult to get into a Golf Club than it is to get into Masonry. Golf Clubs often resound with the clattering of many local high flying businessmen making deals, networking on the green, and the chink of money at the 19th hole. Nobody really knows what goes on in the selection process for new members of some of the more 'elite clubs' either, who knows what deals are being made in the safety and privacy of the clubhouse. See, when a spin is put on something like a golf club, they can sound sinister, which is exactly what happened with Freemasonry.
12.) Guided by the Devil? Am I a 'sheeple' Mason, only going along with it as a loyal follower of the higher up satan worshippers as I've been sucked in? No, I'm not ta, but thanks for the suggestion. I am a normal chap, with my own opinions, and have the benefit of making my own mind up on the organisation by getting the informaiton on the inside, and doing research into it, and discussing it in great (and accurate) depth. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't do it. I prefer this method of reasoning than relying on 140 year old writings of an organisation which bears no relation to the evolved organisation it is now, and also the endless half arsed and minimally researched ramblings on the internet when any 'opinion' can be stated as fact without full research or citation being given by the armchair avengers.
13.) Essentially, it is not a religion, nor any such part of one. It has never been promoted as one, and never will due to it's inherent belief that each member is entitled to an individual belief in their own god/spiritual progression as they see fit. The word allegory is often used in ceremonies to demonstrate this.
14.) You might remember The Goat. Now, as a few people may know, the Goat and I had a few run ins before he left, but despite our 'conversations' and rather heated differences of opinion on /links at times, he was a great chap for sticking to his guns, and /links was an interesting place for it, if not always the friendliest place because of the long threads. We both acknowledged that we can 'agree to disagree' and a mutual respect was good, and I really do hope he's doing well wherever he now is. Thought it may be nice to see a kind word for him this week, as he may get brought up a fair bit here.
15.) Errr, now, about those naked virgins...

Most of the points above are areas I usually have to cover in pub conversations at the end of a long evening when someone has had a bit too much and questions me on it. Although not necessarily 'nutter's in the strictest sense, it's odd that 'most' people will always start off with the viewpoint that freemasons are inherently bad people when starting a conversation/argument about them, without actually knowing anything.

Still, that's enough rambling. I have trouser legs to iron and a new verse of the Stonecutters song to write.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:42, 77 replies)

my grandfather (mum's side) was a mason
a few guys from his old lodge were at his funeral. This was when I learned that my dad can't stand masons. never quite found out why.

a friend of mine at uni told me that her dad was a mason, pretty high up, and used to have people perform plays for him while he sat on his throne. this sounded fairly awesome, but I'm not sure of the accuracy. Ever see anything like that happen?
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:48, closed)

With regard to the can't standing the masons thing,
it's often simpler than it appears. As with all groups, if a member of a group upsets someone, then they all get tarred with the same brush. Every group has its extreme bad apples. the larger the group, statistically, the more bad apples you'll get, but it shouldn't apply to all. Mind you, you can't please everyone, and it's human nature. :)

I'm not a 'very high level' mason, just working my way up slowly and have been enjoying it for the last 8 years so couldn't comment on the 'plays' at any higher level. We have ceremonies where various stories are delivered and performed, so to speak, which act as allegories for some of the principles behind freemasonry :)
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:53, closed)

Whats with
The handshake thing? Am I correct to assume that there are different versions used dependent on the seniority of the individual mason?

Also - out of interest do you agree with the media pressure regarding Rozzers who are masons should disclose their membership?
(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:56, closed)

yup, different versions of the handshake are used to signify to other masons that you are a mason
it's a form of introduction :)

As for the Police thing, it's odd. Even among masonic circles, the Police members tend to form their own 'rozzer lodges', and some aren't looked at all that favourably even inside the fraternity.

that being said, it doesn't really have any impact on the person's job, be they police or not, if they are a freemason - it's about how they conduct their own life. I'd be more worried if they were paid up members of the Tufty Club, or the BNP, for example :)

/I also don't own a 'masonic get out of parking fines free' car sticker either
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:58, closed)

Appreciate your honesty
cheers... One more question - I've that there is a lady masons that was founded by Florence Nightingale - or this that bollocks?
(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:16, closed)

this lady is regarded as the first true female freemason:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Aldworth
and we now have:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Women_Freemasons
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:20, closed)

Are they recognised by the Grand Lodge of England?

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:29, closed)

not by the main one, no, but only because it was set up solely for men.
however, there are two separate Grand Lodges in England restricted to women only.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:04, closed)

Thanks.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Grand Lodge not only refuses to recognise the women as masons, it refuses to have dealings with any group that does.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:12, closed)

that's not strictly true
on the simplest level, our lodge regularly welcomes senior members of female freemasonry to give talks on their craft to not only us, but also our partners as well, just so they can have an idea of what we do, but from a female point of view.
so, the UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England) does work with them, and accepts them as a masonic entity in their own right
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:17, closed)

Fair enough.
Now, can I have the recipe you use when cooking babies for your lodge dinners?
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:23, closed)

and give away ALL our secrets?
I think not!

/ever wondered why it was called 'Baby' Oil?

*taps nose*
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 17:47, closed)

Is it true there's 33 level sof Freemasonry,
and not just the 3 that most peeps see?

Or is it just bullshit.
(Bear Pookie The Frankly Challenged. Halloween is coming to town., Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:56, closed)

This is complex, because it's two fold.
There are several degrees in freemasonry, yes, right up there to 33.
However, after the main three degress, the rest are consdiered 'side' degrees, as it is assumed that you are a master mason at your third degree.
However, the side degrees often go further in explaining more to the history, thus providing more information, and seemingly appearing to be 'higher up' in popular terms.

however, most masons stick with the three degrees. And why not, they were lookers in their day.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:01, closed)

sadly not so much anymore (the 3 degrees that is)
my one final burning question: is there an opportunity to learn some actual masonry skills?
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:13, closed)

well, I haven't yet, not 'for real' anyway ;)

( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:16, closed)

shame
being able to carve your own corbels would be very rewarding
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:21, closed)

you can get cream for that...

( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:22, closed)

If I can jump in here
In the main body of Freemasonry ( called Craft) there are only 3 degrees. There are however numerous additional (I normally call them "Side Orders") orders which can best be defined as Organisations that only take Freemasons as members. One of these a French order called "Rose Croix" has 33 degrees however I can't tell you much about that one as I'm not in it. Please feel free to concoct your own conspiracy theories :)
( Big Ian has stopped changing his sig, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 12:17, closed)

I figured that was probably the case
your explanation of things sounds pretty much like a way to get out and meet people. Without wanting to stereotype, or give too much away, I suspect that my dad came in contact with people from certain professions who are popularly perceived to have a high proportion of masons, and unconnected to their memberships they were dicks.

the deliverance of stories sounds like a plausible explanation for the plays!

thanks
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:57, closed)

Well, that's the winner.
Though it might only because of your, y'know, connections...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 14:58, closed)

Shhhhh. Don't tell everyone.
*orders hit*
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:01, closed)

*gyorgy markovs*

( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:11, closed)

Maybe we should start a lodge of b3ta
Similar to what I've oft had to explain down the pub myself.

People always ask about masons only giving jobs to masons, whether it goes on and I patiently explain that we're very moral bunch, it's part of the rules of the society. To prefer someone over another, purely on the basis of them being a mason, would be highly immoral, so we wouldn't do it. Similarly, to try and get preferrment by openly identifiying oneself as a mason, would also be highly immoral, so we wouldn't do that either.

Same applies for getting speeding tickets, trying to get business, applying for mortgages. The reaction to this is usually "Well if you're not allowed to do that stuff, why would you bother joining, if you don't get any special treatment", which is a whole other argument.
(lardyboy Next stop, Fissplap Central, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:03, closed)

There's quite a few of us on here, which surprised me.
I was wary about putting that up here, but there's very few corners of popular websites when we get to say something, so hope it reads ok fella.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:06, closed)

Good work fella
It's a nice piece. Always difficult to write about something so personal, without getting over passionate and ending up sounding like a recruiting pamphlet for a cult, or a rant against everyone who's not in the club.
(lardyboy Next stop, Fissplap Central, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:43, closed)

That's what a bash actually is.
A Masonic meeting.
Bad trousers. Excess booze. Dribbling. Telling stories.
(Bear Pookie The Frankly Challenged. Halloween is coming to town., Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:06, closed)

I summed up Masonic meetings perfectly once.
It's like a Klingon night out: Ceremony, Alcohol, Food and Singing, but all in dark suits.
K'Pla!
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:08, closed)

Oh, stop being reasonable, you fools.
This is how you have a discussion about masonry on the internet;
www.politics.ie/chat/69013-ready-some-logical-discussion-freemasons.html

More frothing at the mouth and bigotted assertions are needed around here.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:05, closed)

One of my mates is a Mason
...a pretty senior one too. To his non-craft friends such as myself, he refers to them as 'The Pointy Hat Club'.
( MisterPunch did it that way on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:09, closed)

I thought that was the Ku Klux Klan.

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:11, closed)

Well...
you know. If the hat fits... I'm not saying there is any connection between the KKK and other organisations. In case they get me.
( MisterPunch did it that way on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:13, closed)

I am generally of the opinion
that any/all "secret societies" are a bit nuts, but from your description I am now happily convinced that Freemasonry is mostly innocuous, warm and furry (like the CoE)
... but still a bit nuts... (well suited to a B3tan then, I suppose).

Good luck on world domination &c.
( ejlflop errrrrgs. Regularly., Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:17, closed)

I understand the sentiment, but it's going a bit far to claim that all secret societies are dodgy.
In totalitarian or oppressive countries any pro democracy movement will have to spend some time as a secret society.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:26, closed)

Not a secret society
One thing that is made very clear when you join, it's not a secret society, but a society with secrets. Big difference. There's no secrecy about being a member, just some words and handshakes that you have to keep secret.
(lardyboy Next stop, Fissplap Central, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 15:34, closed)

that really doesn't make it sound any less weird
to be honest
(Alphabet Soap boshboshboshbosh, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:01, closed)

I think it's the whole 'society with certain secrets' thing that gets people a bit miffed
they often question what the secrets are, or why we have them. It's often worth pointing out that any organisation has secrets to a general degree, whether it be in business practices, choosing members, or the way it conducts itself. Doesn't necessarily mean it's dodgy, it's just unique to that particular group.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:02, closed)

Even my cooking club has secrets.
I could tell you my recipe for spaghetti sauce, but then I'd have to kill you.
(Seance Trumpet has got no beef with a man enjoying a croissant, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 21:26, closed)

*takes the risk and asks*
:)
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 23:38, closed)

That's Fine
But freemasonry isn't a secret society
( Big Ian has stopped changing his sig, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 12:23, closed)

Sorry for
mentioning Freemasons as a nasty little club in my reply to this QOTW, but to be fair to you I am sure you are very different from the local chapter that my dad had a run in with. It was a very backward area and certainly held true to some of the nastier perceptions of Freemasons as a whole
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:22, closed)

no need to apologise for anything fella
as I mentioned above, every organisation has it's bad elements, masonry certainly has it's fair share of them as well, I'll be the first to admit that :)
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 17:46, closed)

Very interesting,
so this is what you don't do, but what do you do do?
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:40, closed)

i just saw the word GOLF
im in!
( op op op op op I stink therfore I spam, Thu 27 Aug 2009, 16:40, closed)

My dad is a freemason.
I used to type up the minutes for their meetings and I can confirm that they are the most worthy and boring minutes in existence. Unless of course that's just what they wanted me to think........
( The Cat's Mother Not a People Person., Thu 27 Aug 2009, 22:47, closed)

hehe, nope, that's bang on the money ;)

( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 9:49, closed)

Question,
How does one become a mason?
(Funkwomble XBL and PSN DangerBoy73, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 3:59, closed)

you can generally contact a local lodge and ask there.
a wealth if info can be found here:
www.ugle.org.uk/
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 9:49, closed)

Or you can write to grand lodge
Great Queen St
London
( Big Ian has stopped changing his sig, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 12:26, closed)

Pretty much spot on
I've heard of a couple of very old Lodges in Scotland that have Goats but as I understand it it's pretty much just a mascot.
( Big Ian has stopped changing his sig, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 12:28, closed)

I once worked for someone in the masons
Nice chap and quite freely discussed what it was about like you have written in your post. Of course, totally tight lipped when I asked about all the secret handshake stuff and just gave a playful wink and a tap on the side of his nose.
Didn't stop him being a tight arse with the wages he paid though.
(ParaSitius is an Optimistic Pessimist, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 15:00, closed)

Fascinating stuff
My mates Dad was /is a Freemason and as kids he used to show us elements of the craft. Certain handshakes ,his pinny,how to phrase certain sentences to show to fellow Brethren you were in the club. He always impressed on us how it was a society with secrets and not a secret society,as I grew older he was always happy to talk to me about it.Obviously when anyone takes an interest in your"hobby" your going to be keen to talk about it.

I did and still do find it interesting..particularly the Hiram Abiff stuff ,which if memory serves is the subject of one of the "plays" presented .

We used to call it dib dab dobbing....as in "wheres your dad tonight?..Oh he`s gone dib dab dobbin"

My mate is now a Deacon in his lodge...after all that piss taking ;)
( bane, Sat 29 Aug 2009, 22:22, closed)

"...each member is entitled to an individual belief in their own god/spiritual progression as they see fit"
So there's still a "no atheists" rule in place, then.

That's all I need to know.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Sun 30 Aug 2009, 12:18, closed)

^This
I don't get it. I'm all for the charitable stuff, and leading a better life. Not sure why you need to believe in a Supreme Being to be allowed through the doors though.

Perhaps TGA can enlighten us? Why is religious belief/spirituality considered to be necessary at all, let alone of paramount importance?
( chart cat has an itch, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 6:34, closed)

The missus works with an atheist mason who lied about his beliefs to get in
I won't mention any more details in case he's found thrown off a bridge at low tide with brickslarge stones in his pockets, but I think it's disgusting and analogous to forcing people to hide their sexuality if it doesn't fit in with the club's image.

Then again, isn't racist homophobe Jim Davidson the Grand Poobah these days? Yeah, that's a club I'd really want to lie about my beliefs to join. It sounds like the institutional version of getting stuck in the pub while some old bastard tells you all about how things haven't been the same around here since they let so many blacks in.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 10:17, closed)

My cooking club requires that all members be interested in cooking.
Is that wrong of us?

If you don't believe in cooking, then you don't have to lie - you just go and join a different, non-cooking related club.
(Seance Trumpet has got no beef with a man enjoying a croissant, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 21:33, closed)

The main - as I understand it - reason for a requirement to believe in a 'Supreme Being'
is that the ceremonies - in craft and most side degrees - relay information to the candidate for that degree via roles that were once associated with religious progression and belief. This is done to 'enlighten' the candidate via allegory to lead a 'better life' as you put it. If you don't have a belief - at whatever level - in a 'supreme being', then you wouldn't take the progression through the degrees seriously, or with any real belief that what you are doing is of any use, therefore why would you take any obligation seriously to make yourself a 'better person' via the way we do it in masonry?

Simply speaking, if you don't have a belief - at any level - you really wouldn't get anything out of masonry. As I've said before though, it isn't a religion in itself, and it isn't practised as a religion.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 11:15, closed)

"if you don't have a belief - at any level - you really wouldn't get anything out of masonry"
Except of course the missus's colleague who uses it as a useful way to advance his career in construction. I'm sure he doesn't get anything out of masonry at all by pretending to believe in the "Great Architect".

I really don't want to make a big thing of this, but honestly you sound exactly like the kind of apologisist who explains patiently why gays aren't allowed in churches or black people aren't allowed in the BNP. Just because rationalists wouldn't appreciate the funny-hat stuff, doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from the largest old boys' network in the world.

For the record, I was asked a while back by a friend from school. I declined. I've no interest in pretending to believe in a supreme being even for personal or financial gain.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 12:55, closed)

as people have said up above, and I will back up, you don't enter into masonry for financial or other material gain, or at least, you shouldn't as that's not what it's about, or indeed encouraged.
and I'm not apologising for masonry in the slightest, it's just the way it is, you can't please all of the people all of the time. I enjoy it, and it's my own choice, I was just trying to explain an answer to a question, and it's not really fair to start lumping me as an apologist akin to the Black/BNP or Gays/Church arguments as they are Political and Religious respectively in stance, and based around completely different issues. But hey ho, each to their own opinion, and all that. You sound as if your mind is pretty made up about it all, and fair play to you. :)

The entire reason for bringing it up in this QOTW is due to the rather unfair (and uninformed) treatment it gets from the conspiracy theory 'nutters' as the title suggests.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 14:29, closed)

I realise it's an unfair comparison and I don't want to have a go at you over it
It's just that to my mind, the stuff at the top of this post (while dispelling myths about the masons and properly so) doesn't really get to the nub of the issue. I couldn't care less if masons *do* sacrifice goats (or whatever the Conspiracists think they get up to...I've known enough witches, pagans and devil worshippers in my time to know that ceremony is just that) - it just concerns me that such a powerful and infuential institution excludes people on the basis of their (lack of) beliefs. As an atheist, I can't help thinking (cynically) it's just a Christian old boys' network with a couple of token Muslims and that masonry desperately needs to get past that if, to be honest, I'm not going to treat it with a largish amount of suspicion. About 50% of this country's population doesn't believe and that figure is going to be far higher in the scientific community, which is where I would hope a lot of the expertise that masonry celebrates is going to be coming from. I dunno, it just seems archaic and stultifying to only draw members from the rapidly-shrinking religious community when there's a wealth of untapped talent out there that really doesn't have any interest in worshipping bronze-age sky gods.

On the subject of charity, the two largest charitable donations in history were both from atheists, and they continue to pump incredible amounts of money into trying to solve the world's problems, such as eradicating malaria. It's not like atheists aren't capable of becoming better people or doing good works, and I really find it annoying when people think religous = good, more so when it's institutionalised.

Anyway, I'm probably just ranting. I've known masons all my life - I've been to a couple of events up at the lodge, hell, one even gave me a lift in his car this morning - but the religious aspect means I'm never going to be a part of it because I'm too proud to pretend, and it saddens me when I see other people affecting a religion they don't believe just to fit in.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 11:30, closed)

It's no different to a nightclub having a 'no trainers' rule.
The Freemasons is a social club. It's not like people are being excluded from schools or being thrown off trains for being atheists - no one actually has to join the Freemasons, just like people in trainers don't have to go to nightclubs.
(Seance Trumpet has got no beef with a man enjoying a croissant, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 21:37, closed)

Well if that's the case
then I don't think Freemasonry and I will ever be bedfellows.

It comes across like the broken reasoning used by some religious believers to defend morality in religious terms, i.e. one must have a religious belief before morality is possible in order to define good and evil; those pesky atheists, with no fear of eternal punishment or reward have no particular reason to do good (or evil too, we atheists equally argue). I won't get into that here though...

As an open-minded atheist, I'm at least as capable as a faith believer of translating and absorbing allegory/roleplay into my own well-considered definition of morality. I consider the aspects of all religions which encourage virtuous behaviour to be good and proper; even Scientology has its plus points in that respect. However, no religion is necessary in order for an individual to lead a good life based on the simple principle of 'treat others as you wish to be treated yourself'.

For the Freemasons to declare it unimportant which god you worship, but to also insist that you must have one is confusing and somewhat insulting to me, as a person who considers myself generally decent despite my godlessness. For example, I wonder what their position would be if I was to choose Mars as my deity, or Satan, or one of the Voodoo gods? I presume certain religions are unacceptable if they encourage behaviour which conflicts with Freemasonry itself.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question :)
( chart cat has an itch, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 13:21, closed)

no problem fella, as I've said before, it's not for everyone
and let's be clear, I haven't knocked atheists in the slightest, and nor would I want to - and neither does masonry. It's not for everyone, but then again, nothing really is. :)
There's plenty of religious groups who knock masonry as there are atheists doing the same.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 14:20, closed)

Belief and religion are not the same thing
Don't get belief mixed up with religion. One can believe without being ruled by a religious order. I hold my own personal belief system, not one imposed on me by someone, supposedly appointed by a deity. A religion requires that you have faith in what they tell you, or what they have written, Freemasonry requires that you question, study and learn, most particularly about the sciences, about arts and about yourself. It's one of the reasons religious orders have always had a problem with the craft, some of them prefer blind faith to free thought, it's better for purposes of control.

Oh, and as for your choice of deity as a supreme being, if you truly believed, for instance, in Satan as the top dog, fine, if you can square the morality of wanting to be in a society intended to help mankind, with your personal beliefs and not feel a hypocrite, you'd be welcome in our lodge. We'll never question someone's beliefs, only whether they are behaving as a good mason.
(lardyboy Next stop, Fissplap Central, Wed 2 Sep 2009, 10:53, closed)

Doesn't fly with me
Belief, religion. Call it what you want, the semantics are unimportant. The UGLE site states unambiguously that you must believe in a Supreme Being to be accepted. That's a God, not just a "personal belief system", although once again, labels are not the issue. I'm with emvee on this one, it just seems like an organisation with noble goals which is shackled by outdated rules and elitist mysticism.
( chart cat has an itch, Wed 2 Sep 2009, 15:54, closed)

Still can't see what the problem is
Apart from the fact that there is a massive difference between an organised religion and someone's own personal beliefs, I still can't see what the problem is. Are you this annoyed at the Pope for not letting you be a priest? You're excluded from a whole career structure there, for not believing in the holy trinity. That's shocking that is. Why would you be agrieved at not being able to do something that I'd hazard a guess that you woudn't really want to do anyway?
(lardyboy Next stop, Fissplap Central, Wed 2 Sep 2009, 16:30, closed)

shudduuuuup

(ruff secks R.I.P. uncle Jim :(, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 19:02, closed)

We take no responsibility for Steve Guttenberg ;)

( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 21:53, closed)

My dads mate was in the masons, and managed to get their band special dietary requirement pretty much wherever they went, are you sure there are no privileges?
(Peter_G, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 2:18, closed)

I still believe the Freemasons
are a shadowy sinister organisation that are up to no good and damn it I WANT IN ON IT!!
(Seance Trumpet has got no beef with a man enjoying a croissant, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 21:12, closed)

Why?
People join a cooking club because they enjoy cooking, a gym because they want to be fitter or they turn goth if they like dressing up. But why the freemasons?
(This is a genuine question, your 15 point rebuttal of popular myths is not a pitch *for* masonery.)
(bovine intervention, Wed 2 Sep 2009, 1:03, closed)

It wasn't meant it as a pitch *for* freemasonry,
just a rebuttal against some of the 'popular' myths that 'Conspiracy nutters' like to bandy around as 'truth' :)
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Wed 2 Sep 2009, 9:21, closed)

Freemasonry
BEST.MEALS.EVER. ;0) Shame about all the interruptions. For fun & games, hide the gavel before taking wine :0) Also hold hands during 'rituals' to wind up the Worshipful Master.
(Big Smurf Brush me daddy-O, Wed 2 Sep 2009, 21:26, closed)